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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 20, 2014 2:38:07 GMT -8
Well, here it is. I don't know that I'm going to get anyone before game ends, considering you can't kill people off in this game, but we'll see.
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 21, 2014 22:09:11 GMT -8
And Cycle 1 is over.
On current thoughts on the game, I'm actually surprised that the spies (geez, I wrote rogues there) made the play they did to fail the mission, basically because it gives the resistance concrete information so early on. AL had a solid point on how it's unlikely to have more than one spy in the first team because if there were two spies why would you cast doubt on two of you? I did tell Furare that the first mission is usually a pass regardless of whether or not there are spies on that team. That's possibly one of the most tangible reasons for it. There is actually a possibility that the spies can sabotage the first three mission, I guess. In that case it would be a walkover and I definitely have to take a closer look at the balance.
I am also quite fascinated by the way the Double Agent has been playing so far. I think they're doing a good job!
Not sure how this is going to play out - in almost all the games I've played, mission 1 is a pass, 2-3 are fails, 4 is a pass (maybe with one attempted fail because spies can't communicate in my version, and there's a lone spy that doesn't know the rest) and everyone dukes it out for mission 5.
I'm also curious to see how mission 2 goes. I don't know if anyone has realised, but mission 2 is incredibly crucial to the game. If the team you've sent for mission 2 comes back with a pass, you can quite safely assume they're all resistance members and send the same team for mission 3, add one more random for mission 4 and it won't even matter if they're a spy. This is why you want to save on mission 1 - so you have a higher chance to fail mission 2 to prevent the resistance from auto winning.
Someone told me before the game started that they feel like the game balanced very much in favour of the spies. I don't *really* think so, but we'll see how this pans out.
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 23, 2014 17:46:26 GMT -8
I'd have voted fail on that mission if two Spies were sent, for sure. Firstly because failing the first mission gives the Spies a running start. That's good not just from a metagame point of view, but it nudges the Town closer to a panicked frenzy than a mission pass would. Secondly, I'd expect the Town to mostly dismiss the WIFOM of "failing with two Spies draws attention to one more Spy than necessary" and it looks like they are. Thirdly, if, later on, the town comes to a somewhat general consensus that one of the two is a Spy, I think they'll dismiss the WIFOM once again and subconsciously give the second Spy some FoI. And lastly because ballsy moves are always more fun.
I briefly considered the option of choosing one of the three to always send on a mission, so there'd either be a guaranteed Townsperson on every mission, or a Spy who would have to pass at least some of the time in order to not draw attention to themselves. If a second Spy was sent on a mission with them, they may have to pass it too. But that's super ballsy as it could easily lead to a quick Spy victory, so I'm glad I caught my hypothetical self before hypothetically suggesting something daft.
I enjoy Furare's assessment of Sets as likely Spy due to the fact he's being nicer. That's totally his rogue tell for me too.
hi wrecker are we alone :3
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 23, 2014 17:53:09 GMT -8
Voting fail on mission 1 with two spies is kind of a suicidal move, from the way I look at it. I'm in school now, will elaborate when home.
Lol that's totally my rogue tell for sets and I'm quite sure I told him that before.
I'm glad I finally have someone to talk to about this though. Hahaha.
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 23, 2014 17:59:10 GMT -8
It might be more a case of talking at me than with me, I'm not very good at these games and lord am I close to dead right now. I just finished exams yesterday, and I don't even get a proper break because they were delayed a week due to the weather at the beginning of the month. I should be asleep, but... I'm playing League of Legends. I have no idea who the Double Agent is yet, although I'm thinking it's someone very active given you think they're doing a good job, because that sort of implies they've actually been doing things. I wonder if the Spies have noticed.  Have you not played/observed this set up before? I thought you had, so I figured it was definitely balanced. 4/6 is pretty daunting, I think I'd be wetting myself if I were Town. |
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 23, 2014 18:26:53 GMT -8
Lol, LoL. (DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID THERE)
Furare is talking to me about Leif and saying 'you can't play it like ROMS' and that was exactly what I was thinking. Mindmeld! Also DD at least you'd be there to talk at, rather than... Empty space, lol.
I do think the double agent is doing a good job of not being recognized as the double agent. They haven't really put their knowledge to use at the moment but it's really hard. It's a hard role to play.
4/6 is the only way to play a ten person game. The thing is you really cannot play it like ROMS. Admittedly I did play a kind of different set up, because there were two additional roles, and one of them involved making one spy a Lone Ranger type. Also no spy communication. I think I underestimated the potential of that. And the other role was a role who is supposed to divert attention from the double agent. Both help the good guys which is why I took them out. I played this game over 10 times, and the spies only won ONCE. Due to guessing the double agent by pure dumb luck. It seems to be going the other way now
The key mistake the resistance is making now, ironically, is that they're not just randomly sending people. The best thing the second GM could do now would be to send four random people not involved in mission 1 and look at the result. It's not ROMS. People need to get rid of the idea that it's bad to fail. You NEED to fail, guys. The key is making the failures as worthwhile as possible. And you add to that by observing who the GM chooses in the first two rounds without influencing their choice...
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 23, 2014 18:39:38 GMT -8
Ugh proboards. Why you do this to me
This app sucks
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 23, 2014 18:59:56 GMT -8
So I lost a big chunk of post. Hence annoyance.
I hope the thread doesn't get too snippy, I haven't had to step in yet but hopefully don't have to.
I guess there isn't any 'one right strategy' to play this game, it's just that this game so far has gone entirely opposite to what i expected, both from the resistance and the spies. I'll write more about my normal strategy when home. Don't want to risk losing it now.
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 24, 2014 10:39:39 GMT -8
I dunno about you but I feel like Leif's not making much sense re: Riku right now. If FoSing AL and Leif is a logical thought process for innocent!Riku (and I think we can all agree it is), a "quick and easy" statement to make for spy!Riku, why would you decide he's being an out-of-character spy? Surely the logical thought process there is "FoSing AL and Leif as a spy is out of character for Riku, so he's probably not a spy"?
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 25, 2014 2:26:38 GMT -8
I havent really been reading the thread, the only thing I've been doing is checking activity levels. Bad wrecker. Exams have had me rushing around trying to cram stuff so I'm a total scatterbrain right now. I have only a vague idea what you're talking about, but I don't think Riku FoSing Leif and AL is status indicative, considering that should've been the immediate move from all three of them lol.
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 25, 2014 5:57:08 GMT -8
Ok, so I've been wanting to post the 'normal' strategy I've played with before.
Everyone seems to think that the game is incredibly based towards the Spies. There were even people in the thread trying to work out probabilities. The thing is, they missed out the probabilities of two spies or three spies or four spies being in any mission team.
The crucial thing here is that once the town can win mission 2 and 3, they win the entire game. There's no rule against sending the same team again and again, and mission 4 and 5 require two spies to sabotage it. The spies MUST sabotage mission 2 and 3 at all costs. That's why most of the time the spies try to bluff in mission 1 - to give themselves more leeway to sabotage mission 2 and 3. Then 4 and 5 are usually the more drawn out missions because everyone is trying to figure out who's who. That's why there is leeway to fail missions - it's not like ROMS where you don't want to hit LYLO. You don't care about failure missions until you reach two. Then you try to figure out who the spies are.
It's also common practice to send totally different people for mission 1 and 2. You learn more that way.
Of course, I suspect that I've overestimated the amount of power I gave to the spies. The set up I played had three additional things going for the Resistance - I think the biggest one was that the Spies didnt have any communication. So you could have a mission 2 or 3 with two spies in it and both passing the mission or both failing - and the GM tells the Resistance the number of fails. Furare did point out to me that one of the biggest draws in ROMS is having rogue communication, so I allowed it. I'm beginning to think that it was a bad idea.
The other two things going for the Resistance were roles. Merlin is the actual name of the Double Agent role. There's also a role called Blur Cock (Don't ask me why, I don't know) who is a Spy that is unaware of the identities of the other spies. There's also this role called Percival (most random role name ever) who knows the identity of both the Blur Cock and Merlin, but doesn't know which is which. Obviously the Blur Cock is supposed to help to sabotage missions, but being unaware of their members' identities led to weird things happening (one game I played had TWO mission fails on mission 1, that was so messed up for the spies) and Pervical is supposed to figure out who Merlin is, then draw attention away from them after following their lead to identify the Spies. I took both out because I thought the set up would be a bit complicated, and like I said, the spies lost EVERY game except one when I played it.
I'm not sure. I think the spy communication was a big part of it, but maybe this game just doens't translate well to the Internet.
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 25, 2014 9:40:01 GMT -8
I agree FoSing the other two should be the immediate reaction for anyone, but Leif's point was that it was "quick and easy" for a Spy to do that and he didn't think Riku was a "quick and easy" type of player, so he FoS'd Riku for being out of character. That's basically saying "you're not the kind of guy to exhibit rogue tells as a rogue, so you must be a rogue when you do". It's really backwards.
That setup sounds infinitely more complicated, so I think simplifying things was a good move. If people enjoy this gamemode, it might be a good idea to up the level of complexity in the next game when people will have a better grasp of the whole thing. It's obviously taken us dozens of ROMS games to reach the meta we're at now, and it's always evolving, so I wouldn't write this gamemode off if it doesn't work well the first time. As long as it's fun, we can keep refining it.
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 25, 2014 16:10:05 GMT -8
It's not the most ridiculous reason we've seen, I think XD but I do see where you're coming from. Where is Sets? Yeesh. The Double Agent is finally PMing me again. I was wondering how he/she was gonna play this. Yeah that set up is much more complicated. I don't know if people are enjoying it. I know loads of people are busy and there is RL, so that might contribute to what seems to be the general not-that-much interest. If done in future I do actually think spy communication might have to be removed, or else the town needs to get both those other roles. Spy communication is OP  I actually still prefer ROMS over this game by far though. So... Would be happy to go back to ROMS, I only proposed this because it seemed like there wasn't that much interest in ROMS ATM. |
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 26, 2014 18:20:48 GMT -8
And there it is.
The spies actually considered bluffing this mission, and I was like 'wait what'. Didn't make sense to me.
I'm not sure what's going to happen. I imagine those people that pushed the missin through are going to get some flak. At least there were some reject votes so it might actually work out some. I hope people look at that though. I'm very very worried for the Resistance but hoping they might be able to push through.
Hey DD, who do you think the spies are?
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 27, 2014 6:39:22 GMT -8
Because that's basically exactly what I saw over the course of ten games? =P I'm not actually sure. It feels like our ROMS community doesn't actually do things the way other people do them. Lol.
The thing is though, that some of our Resistance members are truly close to the answer. Most of them are thinking in terms of 'who is a Spy?' right now. Once they flip it around and determine who isn't a spy, they might be able to nail mission 3. I havent read carefully to see if anyone's analysed the votes to send the mission team out yet, but I hope someone does.
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 27, 2014 11:53:49 GMT -8
I think Leif is a Spy, but that's based more upon you saying they considered bluffing than anything else. I can't really see what other situation would lead to a bluff. I think that means there were two Spies on the second mission, and it's just more likely one of them was Leif given he was on the first mission. But really, I have no idea. I'm not reading thoroughly enough to have an informed opinion. Such is the luxury of reading along instead of playing. :3 |
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Post by SeastarX on Jan 27, 2014 16:27:00 GMT -8
Hello! *Lurks more*
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 27, 2014 16:27:01 GMT -8
And out it comes.
Furare's been telling me that she just really isn't that interested in this game, and... Eh, I concur. I'm not that interested in it either. It does not have the kick it did in RL. And I'm not sure if anyone is really getting into it at all. I just... augh. Idk. Regrets.
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 27, 2014 16:27:19 GMT -8
Hey Sea  |
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 27, 2014 17:32:07 GMT -8
Hey Sea  I think it looks like fun, I wish I hadn't had exams and could have played. |
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Post by wrecker15 on Jan 27, 2014 19:12:17 GMT -8
Three of the four spies might be pegged by the resistance. Soonish. I'm hoping.
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Post by DementedDuck on Jan 29, 2014 9:10:56 GMT -8
Aeth's a Spy. I can feel it in my bones. Maybe.
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Post by wrecker15 on Feb 5, 2014 14:06:04 GMT -8
I do actually think ending the game might be a good idea. People are burnt out and it's not even been one game.
Musing on what I could have done to make it any more interesting. And honestly I'm drawing a lot of blanks. Maybe this game just doesn't translate well to paper.
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Post by wrecker15 on Feb 5, 2014 14:18:41 GMT -8
Putting my thoughts out here before I go to school.
I think one of the big factors is that I made the Days too long. I gave four Days for discussion time, but The Resistance is actually a very fast paced game. I'm pretty sure 2 days would've been sufficient. 4 days basically made everyone talk about in circles. Also the GMs are holding back the teams a lot. When I played it tended to be propose, vote, snap snap. In the last few rounds, toss out a few 'so-and-so is a spy I think, because of this' and reject a couple missions. People do tend to agree on one eventually.
I also do think a lot of people (me included, now) feel like the game is pretty balanced towards the spy team, and that puts people off playing especially during the last couple of missions. I'm seeing a lot of waiting going on. Like everyone's waiting for everyone else to do something, and RL is of course coming to bite everyone too. All these factors combined is probably making it a big issue for people playing. A couple people did tell me straight up that they just don't feel like playing any more, so blerg. I don't know.
Overall though, given the propensity of ROMS folks to analyze, and sometimes overanalyze a lot of stuff, I kind of think it might be best if we just stopped playing this. It's not going to work out.
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Leif
Senior Chatterbox
Posts: 600
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Post by Leif on Feb 10, 2014 7:17:45 GMT -8
Yeah, I think quicker Days would have helped a lot. The problem with 2 day Days is you'll wind up with one over a weekend, and we're not real good with weekends.
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