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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 8:54:16 GMT -8
Okay, thanks. Turning thread upside down now.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 8:54:32 GMT -8
I said that I would post if I had changed my opinion in any way. I'm not convinced by any means yet, but my doubt has reached a level where I need to post this in the thread. My case on Marinated has been based largely off her reluctance to vote for Taelac once suspicion actually started moving there. And she stuck with it right up till the lynch, along with a last minute vote switch that made her look appallingly roguey, to me. Yet, wouldn't rogue Marinated *know* that it was a bad move, and then not do it? I don't know. This is a minor point anyway. The major thing is here. I said that I had re-read XIII to get a feel of rogue Marinated. For what it's worth, that was inconclusive because I feel that Marinated's playstyle has changed since then. I also read the DT and the rogue docs for the fun of it because XIII is one of my milestone games and I got a lot of personal satisfaction from my performance that game. That's when I noticed something I missed earlier. I have been based my actions of what I know of Marinated - that she is a cautious player that dislikes bussing her own partners. Therefore, my case made a lot of sense to me because it looked to me like she was trying to save taelac. However, what I failed to consider up till now, is that taelac is a confirmed rogue. taelac, unlike marinated, loves cutthroat activities. She's not afraid to be a sacrifice when needed, and once in danger never fails to urge her rogue partners to lynch her. She talked constantly about it in XIII when suspicion was getting thrown her way, even when it hadn't come to votes yet. So I went back through the thread to reread Bunny in conjunction with taelac which I had not actually done before. And there is enough there to make me doubt myself. The above is one of the only posts I can find with what might be called suspicion on Taelac before the vote post. There is also this: But I read that as more of just talking things through. The next post that mentions Taelac is this: And that was followed up by a vote for Taelac. I think I read less into it because she agreed with me and I was suspicious of Marinated. BUT. I have realised that with rogue *Taelac*, I should not be looking for 'suspicion but not willing to vote' but 'suspicion that came out of.... Well, not out of the blue, but it was certainly rather sudden. The case made a lot of *sense* at the time, so I can't really fault that. But I noted in my re-read of a game that I felt that rogue Bunny in the past has been quite tunnel visioned. And, other than Taelac, Bunny's main suspicion has been Riku. There are a lot of things that are discussions with people, or questions. There are a few one liners that indicate some niggles, but she usually doesn't go back. I am halfway through re-reading a game of innocent bunny to see if this is also true of innocent bunny, but I need to get this post out here for consideration. Going back to look, Bunny *also* fits the distancing theory I had. Like a one or two line mention from Taelac, but nothing very conclusive. I guess I fit this too, so there's not much there. What is noteworthy, I guess, is the timing. I've already pointed out before that Taelac was receiving a lot of attention in the Night. Knowing Taelac, she would have known it might be a possibility she was lynched. In that situation, people normally try to distance themselves from their rogue partners. Which is why I read Taelac as trying to distance herself from Marinated by commenting that things were interesting but not going back later. But again, I come back to 'this isn't just a rogue, it's taelac'. She knows that if she is lynched as a rogue, people would go back to find anyone she might have distanced herself from. So it's entirely likely that she did that on purpose, to make people look harder at Marinated. But we're reaching WIFOM territory here, so I think I'm just going to stop here. Further factoring into this is that Marinated has done things that I think are very inadvisable for her to do as a rogue. She's flip-flopping repeatedly between Bunny and myself, when we both have already voted here. Better to pick one and try to turn the other against them, I feel. Additionally, I feel a little bit like she's flailing in both directions (sorry Marinated, no offence meant! ) and trying really hard to see cases for both people. I've seen things from her that I would've have thought of in a billion years. That kind of effort merits my own considerations of my vote, and that's what I did. I'm not going to *change* my vote just yet, but... unvote: Marinated
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 8:57:30 GMT -8
Me, failing very hard, wrote:
I've seen things from her that I would've have thought of in a billion years.
Obviously that should be 'wouldnt have thought of in a billion years'.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 9:02:06 GMT -8
Wait, what's the 'more obvious case' you had on me?
The 'changing tune' thing? Which I obviously disagree with but whatever. It's not important now. Is that the case you were talking about?
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 9:20:08 GMT -8
Still sick. Very tired. Can't keep eyes open, although I should finish this re-read. Sorry, but I need to get well so this isn't one of those times where I can sacrifice health for ROMS (totally guilty of doing that in the past). I'm going to sleep. And should be up before deadline. If I'm not, I'll just... Idk I can't even kill myself because toDay is the last day haha. I guess I will just have to make sure I wake up even if it means setting like ten alarms. Haha.
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Post by Marinated on Oct 14, 2013 9:50:55 GMT -8
Wait, what's the 'more obvious case' you had on me?
The 'changing tune' thing? Which I obviously disagree with but whatever. It's not important now. Is that the case you were talking about? It was that you looked to me like you were bussing Taelac. I first mentioned it in post 453 after which came the changing tune exchanges, and I summed it up here: The way I see it is this: When the fuss about Tae missing Leif's vote came up Tae and her partner thought there was a good chance that she would be lynched (and she quite likely would have been if it wasn't for Firebolt not voting Riku when she could have done), they decided to go for the FoI.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 14:29:05 GMT -8
Does it look to you like Bunny might have bussed Taelac, given what I posted?
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 14:33:47 GMT -8
Back from a bad day at work so warning in advance if I come off as snippety: Wrecker: You snipped part of why I was suspicious of Tae (Not seeing the case on Riku and then making the same case on you) out of the first post you quoted. Tae responded to that question, then the post that you refer to as "just talking it through" was me following up on Tae's response. I wasn't buying it. That's called "still suspicious", regardless of how you may read it. You also missed the bottom of this post where I noted that the super long summary post from Tae was different from my experience of innocent Tae. I admit that that did not factor much into my later suspicion of her, but it was an initial ping on the radar. I have realised that with rogue *Taelac*, I should not be looking for 'suspicion but not willing to vote' but 'suspicion that came out of.... Well, not out of the blue, but it was certainly rather sudden. Didn't your suspicion on Tae come "out of the blue?" You were leaning innocent there before Day 3's events, you did what you called a "180 degree flip"; that's pretty much the definition of "sudden". Things happen in the thread that suddenly make us suspicious. You seem to be saying that my suspicion of Tae cropped up in the post where I voted her, but that's not the case. I don't know what else to tell you. There are a lot of things that are discussions with people, or questions. There are a few one liners that indicate some niggles, but she usually doesn't go back. I am halfway through re-reading a game of innocent bunny to see if this is also true of innocent bunny, but I need to get this post out here for consideration. I think you're stumbling over the way I play the game. I don't do FoS lists, I discuss things. If I'm asking someone a question, it's not because I just want somebody to talk to: it's because they did something that caught my attention/suspicion and I'm trying to make sense of it. If they answer my question to my satisfaction I drop it. If not, I keep asking. I don't really see how this can be construed as "not being suspicious of anyone but Riku". I admit, I thought riku was a rogue. Like all game. Obviously I was wrong, but it's not like I didn't ever question anyone else.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 14:35:41 GMT -8
My issue here is that I can see a lot of possible rogue motivation behind some of the things Bunny has done, with the key word being 'possible'. It only makes sense if I look at it from rogue Bunny standpoint. With Taelac.
Also that rogue Marinated and rogue Taelac have vastly different playstyles. On a taelac-Marianated only team... Whose opinion wins?
Rgg. I don't know. If Marinated was here all the way, why no reply to bigpost? I would like a second opinion.
I swear I know how Luv, Tae (and Dylan) felt in XI now. I got something like two hours of sleep last night.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 14:43:48 GMT -8
Well, yeah, my suspicion of tae came out of the blue, but I didn't vote taelac for the first time after three Days after not mentioning her much in my posts, when there were three other votes on her =P I mean, I really do apologise if you *did* catch taelac, but that's an awfully convenient position for a bus. That applied to Joly too, but Joly got banned.
Yes, Bunny. I agree that the way you play is a stumbling block for me, because to me questions really dont mean suspicion. They mean clarification. What I take as suspicion is when you literally say 'this is suspicious, and here's why', I don't tend to see 'this could be seen as suspicious when read this way' as an actual suspicion. Also, that's weird. I could've sworn that I quoted the post that you said I missed, but it's not showing there. I saw it, it factored into my post.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 14:50:15 GMT -8
Oh and as a side note feel free to rant about bad day once game is over =P We're a little short on time now or i would ask you about it now.
Further factoring into my problem is Marinated's not-voting again. Yet. Normally Marinated makes her suspicions known and votes early. I have yet to see it. Possibly because she's still unsure. Idk. Rgg.
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 15:00:56 GMT -8
To be honest, I wasn't posting all that much in the span of time you're talking about. There are 6 posts between my initial question of Tae and the follow-up questions. Of those 6, 1 was to explain how my page refreshed, one was a response to firebolt, and the other four were in a migraine related haze (one of them being my vote post, where I even said I would switch to another candidate, one of whom was Tae, to secure the lynch). Between the follow-up and the vote post, there was one post, which is where I questioned the thing Joly said about the "sabotaged lynch" because that had cropped up. So starting with the initial question, and subtracting non-game-related posts, out of 6 posts three of them directly mentioned Tae, and one of them indirectly. I think referring to it as "I didn't vote taelac for the first time after three Days after not mentioning her much in my posts, when there were three other votes on her" is not exactly accurate.
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 15:03:43 GMT -8
Brief note about the work day: I never ate lunch, because it was one of those days, and it is now after 4pm my time. So I'm going to grab food, but I'll be around.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:06:04 GMT -8
It's more like I didn't get the vibe that you were suspicious of her at all. So the vote looks like it came from a sudden decision that taelac was a rogue. Like you know that bit on Riku and not-seeing the case? It looks to me like you were just pointing it out to her, rather than being suspicious of her for it. And I think the same thing is happening with a lot of other statements of yours to other people, because it doesnt actually have 'this is suspicious' tacked onto it. I don't do subtle, you need to yell things in my face. =P
It might help if you could point out to me if you were suspicious of anyone else other than tae, Joly or Riku along with the quotes showing that.
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Post by Marinated on Oct 14, 2013 15:09:50 GMT -8
If Marinated was here all the way, why no reply to bigpost? I would like a second opinion. I swear I know how Luv, Tae (and Dylan) felt in XI now. I got something like two hours of sleep last night. I think I had about three hours. I didn't reply to the post because I didn't want to pre-empt anything Bunny might say. XIII was one of my favourite games. I agree that Tae would be willing to be lynched for the FoI if necessary, which is why I didn't give any to either Riku or you for the early Tae votes. It's also why I would ignore anything she said after the end of Day 3 as it would be said in the knowledge that she was likely to be lynched. Well I've thunk it through and I'm going to follow my earlier leaning. Vote: BunnylarooStill not absolutely certain but I'm voting now because my internet's been a bit flaky today.
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 15:10:40 GMT -8
maybe after I eat. You could read my interchange with you on Day 2 over your "list", because I was suspicious of you for that in case you couldn't tell. After you answered I was "satisfied" but while you were asking I was suspicious. That's why I was asking.
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 15:12:15 GMT -8
sorry, while I was asking, not while you[/u] were asking.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:14:41 GMT -8
You were asking about something that I was asking you while I asked that other thing? =P
Sorry. I got it, lol. I've been in a silly mood these few days. I'll go back and look. thanks.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:17:07 GMT -8
Marinated, out of curiosity, why didn't you just *tell* me that throughout my suspicion of you? I mean, you thought about it and didn't give me or Riku FoI for it, but why would you not use it to... Well, not to explain your behaviour, but as a counter argument for your innocence?
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:28:38 GMT -8
Yeah Bunny, I'm not seeing suspicion, only clarification. From my side of the room.
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Post by Marinated on Oct 14, 2013 15:31:18 GMT -8
Does it look to you like Bunny might have bussed Taelac, given what I posted? I missed this earlier. Going on votes alone, it's difficult to tell because her votes came late in the day, and I don't recall anything that strong in her posts. Marinated, out of curiosity, why didn't you just *tell* me that throughout my suspicion of you? I mean, you thought about it and didn't give me or Riku FoI for it, but why would you not use it to... Well, not to explain your behaviour, but as a counter argument for your innocence? I thought I did, but maybe I just thought it. How would it be a counter argument for my innocence?
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 15:32:46 GMT -8
Well, that's how I do suspicion. I'm telling you that was me being suspicious. That's all I can do.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:33:02 GMT -8
Because if Taelac has a reputation for bussing/getting her partners to bus her, wouldn't you have been doing the exact opposite thing by voting for Riku instead of Taelac the day she got lynched?
Which votes came late in the Day? The taelac vote? Not really, I don't think?
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Oct 14, 2013 15:37:00 GMT -8
Oh, here is where I outright said I had a theory about you while I was questioning you that your answers satisfied: This post this quote: So while you may not have seen my questions as indicative of suspicion, that doesn't mean the suspicion wasn't there.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:45:26 GMT -8
Oh ok. Fair. I only read till 'I'm satisfied with the answers' so missed that post.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:49:55 GMT -8
Augh I'm... Jeez, the town's win depends on me, doesn't it? I have the hammer vote. No pressure, obviously.
Ok. Going to go re-read thread. If anyone wants to say anything, now would be a good time. I'm panicking.
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Post by Marinated on Oct 14, 2013 15:53:33 GMT -8
Because if Taelac has a reputation for bussing/getting her partners to bus her, wouldn't you have been doing the exact opposite thing by voting for Riku instead of Taelac the day she got lynched? Which votes came late in the Day? The taelac vote? Not really, I don't think? It would only be the exact opposite thing if I hadn't been willing to lynch Tae, which I was. Bunny's vote was the fourth vote on Tae, so not early?
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 15:56:30 GMT -8
Early as in not late in the Day.
Also, Bunny's vote was the one that clinched the deal, at least til Leif voted.
Does that factor into your considerations?
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Post by Marinated on Oct 14, 2013 16:04:07 GMT -8
Early as in not late in the Day. Also, Bunny's vote was the one that clinched the deal, at least til Leif voted. Does that factor into your considerations? Not really. As I said earlier, no-one gets FoI for Day 5.
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Post by wrecker15 on Oct 14, 2013 16:08:16 GMT -8
Yeah, I know no one gets FoI. Does that make you any more suspicious of her, or is it not a factor?
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