Furare
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Post by Furare on Jan 23, 2014 18:10:05 GMT -8
Lest this look like a contradiction of things I've said before, I'm still in favour of non-GM players giving their opinions on other people, or saying who they think should or shouldn't go. I just don't think we need to work out a consensus of exactly who should be on the team. The idea behind giving your opinions on other players is much the same as it is in ROMS - Spies have to fabricate suspicions and lack-of-suspicion, and it might trip them up. (Although it does give the GM a feel for how the wind is blowing and inform their decision on who to pick.)
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Furare
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Post by Furare on Jan 23, 2014 18:16:07 GMT -8
Huh. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.
You're the GM, sure, but if you're trying to get a "consensus", it looks like you're trying to avoid a mission reject. (Given what you were saying to Sets earlier, that does look like what you're trying to do.) And I'm well within my rights to wonder why that might be.
This isn't ROMS. You can't play it like ROMS.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 23, 2014 18:21:29 GMT -8
You're the GM, sure, but if you're trying to get a "consensus", it looks like you're trying to avoid a mission reject. Not explicitly, no. And I'm well within my rights to wonder why that might be.[/quote] I thought the exchange with Sets earlier was clear. He posted something appearing to say he'd reject any team. I don't think that's a good idea. If any team'll be rejected, why discuss them? I'm not. Thanks for saying I'm playing the game wrong again.
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Furare
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Post by Furare on Jan 23, 2014 18:29:40 GMT -8
Trying to get a consensus looks awfully like ROMS to me. Though that wasn't entirely directed at you. I think we're all trying to play too much like this were a ROMS game, and I think we have to get past that before we can figure out how we should be playing. (I don't claim to know that; I just don't think what we're - all of us - are doing now is working.)
It's stupid-late, so I'm going to bed.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 23, 2014 18:45:29 GMT -8
Riku - Disinclined to send. I do think it slightly more likely he's a spy. The immediate reaction of FoS AL and Leif contributes to that somewhat. Leif - Pure as the driven snow. Or sleet. Whichever winter precipitation you have currently. AhoyLindsay - Inclined to think a member of the resistence. Admittedly, this is playing the odds somewhat. Jolyma - Don't know. Aethera - Think she's made some good helpful points. Inclined to think dedicated member of resistance. firebolt - I got nothing. Non-participant. Bunnylaroo - Inclined to think resistant. Furare - No clue. Marinated - Nothing. Setsusa - Against odds inclined to think is some other word for innocent.
Places where I worry: I'm generally predisposed to thinking Bunny is innocent, I've a notably hard time reading Sets. I don't think AL going after Sets a bit is necessarily indicative either way.
If anyone has any particularly strong arguments to make, there ain't that much time left to make them.
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Post by Riku on Jan 23, 2014 19:23:13 GMT -8
The immediate reaction of FoS AL and Leif contributes to that somewhat. Why's that?
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Post by AhoyLindsay on Jan 23, 2014 20:33:36 GMT -8
Hey y'all, I had some unfortunate family stuff today, but I'll be around tomorrow. Sorry! I've read almost to the bottom of the previous page.
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Post by firebolt153 on Jan 23, 2014 21:50:19 GMT -8
On the topic of whether the previous mission had one or two spies, I do agree that it's most logical that only one of them was the spy (my gut says AL). We have clever enough players to use wifom against the resistance though, and if that's the case and there were actually two on the team, then I would think that the spies were Riku and AL. I don't think Leif is a spy, mainly because of how he and Furare were going back and forth in their arguments. In my experience in ROMS, it's innocents who fight with each other that much. I also agree with Joly in that we should have a fresh batch of people for round two and see what we can glean from that selection. That said, because I think Leif is resistance, I would be fine with him including himself in the next mission.
I love you all, but percentages and decimals and fractions make my head hurt, especially after midnight.
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Post by Aethera on Jan 24, 2014 6:52:57 GMT -8
Sorry Leif, I'll try breaking them into smaller pieces. I just only seem to have a couple of windows to read and respond a day, mostly at work in the morning. Every ROMS game I resolve not to post long posts, and then fail once we actually have stuff to talk about. Clearly this is no different. Fire, thanks for coming back. I hope we'll see more from you. I'm sorry about setting off the mathsplosion. ...There's pros and cons for the spies for failing the first mission, and the biggest con in my opinion is that it immediately puts the town on their toes and makes them more careful. If the spies encourage this amongst the townmembers, it kind of makes it so that failing the first mission was not worth it for them. Since Sets right off the bat told everyone he wanted to be careful even to the point of suggesting not sending a mission, I doubt he's a spy. What I don't understand here is the notion that the town wouldn't be on its toes without a failed mission. Aren't we all on our toes from the beginning in this game since we're all new? And considering your view of who is more nervous, doesn't that go doubly for the town? And while I grant that I feel lost, I don't see why the Spies would feel any less lost, even if they can talk to each other, since none of us have played before. Every night I've been gaming out ideas with my boyfriend (who is sick of hearing about it, I'm sure) and it doesn't help me very much. (Sorry John!) I didn't consider that you'd respond to Leif's question as 'who would I send' considering you're the farthest from being GM right now, but OK, I see how it's possible you interpreted it that way. I interpreted it as 'who should we send next' not 'who would I send next' since that seems most relevant to the actual movement of the game, despite his phrasing. Furare, I think if there IS a consensus, great, because if we get to, say, Mission 4 and we're pretty confident in some innocents due to a couple of successes, it wouldn't make sense to let the GM go in a totally different direction. But what you're saying is exactly what I was getting at with the note that Leif could have put forward a suggestion people would really dislike in order to turn responsibility back on 'well that was the town consensus' later. However, as we don't seem to be coming to one, I think it is time for Leif to put a list out, yes. And it seems like he's going to. So I'll come back later and see what that turns out to be.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 6:57:22 GMT -8
That was actually entirely a joke. It was just pretty busy yesterday and this weather event has it likely stacking up that way today. I am working on a response to Riku though!
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Post by Jolyma on Jan 24, 2014 7:45:40 GMT -8
Read to here. Had delayed start to school, so caught up. Have to go now, will be back later, but this gives me things to ponder while tying shoes, handing out tissues, and listening to kids read to me.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 7:53:44 GMT -8
The immediate reaction of FoS AL and Leif contributes to that somewhat. Why's that? It seemed the quick, easy answer and would further a possible agenda of "discrediting" the next two GMs. I've been trying to go back and look at Rogue You vs Not Rogue You to see how you've reacted, but that's clearly not going to happen given work today.
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Furare
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Post by Furare on Jan 24, 2014 8:40:40 GMT -8
It's also kind of the common sense thing to do if Riku is innocent and knows he is innocent, though, don't you think?
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 8:42:59 GMT -8
Given that I'm innocent and that's not how I started, I wouldn't tend to agree.
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Furare
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Post by Furare on Jan 24, 2014 9:24:32 GMT -8
But surely "I'm innocent and I was on this mission that failed with these two other dudes, so (at least) one of those dudes must be a Spy" is an understandable thought process? Even if it's not what you yourself would do/did?
I am genuinely trying to understand your thought process and am drawing an utter blank as to why Riku immediately FoSing you and AL is a remotely suspicious circumstance. It's a "quick, easy answer" because to innocent!Riku it's true. Yes, to spy!Riku it's a useful way to discredit two GMs he would know are innocent, but I think that putting FOS on the other members of a failed mission makes sense to either alignment.
It gets more and more likely that Leif is actually innocent, to my mind. Which I guess means either AL is the Spy from Mission #1 or I need to re-read Riku. To be honest I ought to do that anyway.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 9:39:20 GMT -8
But surely "I'm innocent and I was on this mission that failed with these two other dudes, so (at least) one of those dudes must be a Spy" is an understandable thought process? Even if it's not what you yourself would do/did? Sure it is. I also tend to think of Riku as a bit more of a savvier "next level thinker" kind of guy who doesn't often go for the quick and easy. It's somewhat inconsistent with my opinion of Riku. It also fits with my thought that the GM in that circumstance was a bit more likely to be a spy, and is the probable behavior of such a person. So it's a contributing factor.
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Post by AhoyLindsay on Jan 24, 2014 11:51:41 GMT -8
Back. I'm responding to a lot at once so forgive/tell me if I forgot anything directed at me.
I reiterate my FoI on Aethera. Only exception is if both Leif and riku are spies, which I doubt, because iirc she was the first other than Leif himself to propose re-sending people from mission 1.
I still think Setsusa is weird, because he says he's against sending a mission team today, but at the same time doesn't voice any suspicion of Leif. If you think Leif is resistance I don't know why you'd want to skip his turn at GM just for more discussion time. If you were uncertain of Leif, sure, but a resistance member doesn't have a lot of incentive to skip the turn of someone they think is a fellow resistance member. Also, when Leif proposes a team, it's going to be really easy for Sets to look at it and either say, "I said I wouldn't vote for any team, so reject" or come up with some excuse to kindly acquiesce to the pressure to accept, as he prefers.
This combined with some other stuff (the arguing, honestly) makes me back off my previous proposal that Leif was the spy and think it more like that it was riku. I still don't think the GM was more likely to be a spy for the first round as a rule.
Bunny, to your response to my suspicion of Sets: a) I didn't understand the basis of your suspicion before b) as I made clear, I was operating under the assumption that the 3 from the first mission would be excluded from the 2nd, in which case it makes much much more sense to figure out who is and isn't suspicious among the remaining players. As shown later I wasn't ignoring the fact that one of Leif or riku is to me a spy, but thinking of who I would want to put on a team, especially as Leif hadn't even posted at that point for me to begin to surmise which it would more probably have been.
Also, a riku-Sets spy team would *really* mesh with riku talking about how he was "more reject-happy" after the mission fail. First of all he obviously wasn't going to reject his own mission so we have no idea how reject-happy he was before, therefore it's likely that he's aiming to put the idea in other people's heads rather than convey a change of opinion, and second of all because if he was the spy, it would be great for him if both me and Leif got skipped.
I'm really still adjusting to this whole scenario where there's a lot more danger around despite no danger of dying. But I think that if I believe Leif is innocent, which I currently do, it will be really important for us to pass his mission, and then be able to pass mine with the same group to pull ahead. I'm used to thinking of early rounds as less important but in a game like this we are at a crucial spot. I'd be willing to vote accept on me, Leif, Aethera, and marinated at a team, maybe willing to still vote accept if we throw Furare in there instead of someone else. Feeling wary of Sets, riku, and bunny.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 12:22:23 GMT -8
Marinated is just way out of left field there for me. What're you thinking there?
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Post by Bunnylaroo on Jan 24, 2014 12:28:52 GMT -8
And that is also why I was confused by Bunny saying Furare's team "didn't mesh" with the idea of a GM sending themselves, when I was seeing it as Furare suggesting a team as if she was the GM in which case it would mesh. The point I guess is that it's kind of an unreasonable assumption from Bunny to call that out when the question was "Who would you want on a mission team?" rather than "What team should Leif send?". I'm aware that this wasn't directed at me apparently, but I'm going to respond to it anyway, because I honestly don't see how you could call my assumption unreasonable. So you think (or thought) Furare was proposing the team she'd send if she were GM? (We'll ignore the fact that in Furare's response to me, she says that wasn't the case - that she "wasn't thinking about who would send the team" - so obviously I'm not the only one who made the unreasonable assumption) After Leif, Furare is the sixth GM in line. So your assumption was that Furare was proposing a team she'd like to send in 6 Day cycles? Which, if we go the full cycle, as it looks like we're going to this time, is 24 days away? I...feel like that's a much more unreasonable assumption than what I put forward. But hey, maybe Leif was just taking a public opinion survey rather than attempting to gather information which he would use to propose a team. <--SARCASM In reality, rather than "calling Furare out", I was asking for clarification. As in "are you suggesting that Leif send this team? Because that's contrary to what you said about GMs before, which I still agree with." I think I dislike the spin you put on it, especially in a post that was not directed at me. AL, hope the family situation is better. Bunny, to your response to my suspicion of Sets: a) I didn't understand the basis of your suspicion before b) as I made clear, I was operating under the assumption that the 3 from the first mission would be excluded from the 2nd, in which case it makes much much more sense to figure out who is and isn't suspicious among the remaining players. As shown later I wasn't ignoring the fact that one of Leif or riku is to me a spy, but thinking of who I would want to put on a team, especially as Leif hadn't even posted at that point for me to begin to surmise which it would more probably have been. I actually wasn't clear on point B. You said you thought it was likely that your/Leif's mission proposals would be rejected, and you also seemed to indicate that you thought that was not necessarily a good idea - that's not the same thing as indicating that you assumed all three of you would be excluded from the second mission. I acknowledged that you clarified your thoughts on riku/Leif. I was just trying to clarify point A for you. I would like to know why you're comfortable sending marinated, because she's hardly said anything, and why you're wary of me. Is it because I've questioned you? Aaaand Leif sniped me with the marinated question, on preview.
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Post by Jolyma on Jan 24, 2014 13:28:09 GMT -8
Furare, I know you asked Leif, but I have to say my first reaction to Riku's immediate FOS on both of the others was "Nononono it can't be me is HAS to be them!" Seriously, that's what went through my head. Of course, I'm now working with 5 and 6 year olds, so I'm seeing a lot of finger pointing these days. I think I'd be less wary if he'd have picked one and given reason other than 'it's not me so it has to be them.' Of the 3 of them, I don't think it's Leif. I think he's be honestly trying to get discussion going, so that we can start trying to sort out the resistance from the spies. I still think that a new base for Mission 2 will help in the long run, but I think I'm outnumbered on that score. I just think that if it fails, we'll have had a look at the majority of the player base, in relation to missions than we'd have trying to send 2 from Mission 1 and 2 new ones. Right now, we just have mostly strategy discussions, and some FOS/FOI based on those and some back and forth-ing. And I think that in this game, the spies don't lose anything by talking strategy.
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Furare
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Post by Furare on Jan 24, 2014 13:32:23 GMT -8
I was more or less thinking "Who would I trust to go on a mission at this point in time" rather than "who should Leif choose to send". The former is all the input I can expect to have on a turn when I'm not the GM; the latter is down to Leif.
Leif and I tend to get under each other's skins when he is innocent. (It means nothing about my alignment; we had a spat on the last Day of 11.5 when I was a rogue.) He also jumps at shadows and takes the worst view of everything as an innocent. I'm going to qualify this FoI on the grounds that Leif knows we know all of that.
I guess Leif, Aeth, Bunny and me would do for a team, with how I feel right now. I am provisionally trusting Leif based on the above observations, I trust myself as far as I ever do, and Aeth and Bunny have an innocent feel to me at present, although I'm not sure to what extent that's something I always feel with regard to them. I would consider such a team to have a decent chance of success, and if it did fail I think I would know more than I know now.
Although to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I feel comfortable sending anything at this juncture; there are several people I have absolutely no feel for at all.
That's all for tonight. I'm pretty sleepy already and it's only 9:30.
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Post by Jolyma on Jan 24, 2014 13:33:52 GMT -8
Well, I also think with as close to the vest as Leif is playing right now, I'm inclined to think he's resistance rather than spy.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 13:49:37 GMT -8
That Marinated recommendation has thrown me somewhat. I'm revising my opinion on AL a bit. I was hoping to have a team posted by now, but this is literally the busiest day of work I've worked in like a year. Maybe here in a bit.
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Post by Riku on Jan 24, 2014 13:49:51 GMT -8
I think I dislike the spin you put on it, especially in a post that was not directed at me. Sorry, that wasn't very clear and I probably shouldn't have included it, especially with poorly used tenses. That was my thought process /before/ I realized that there was the alternate and possibly more correct interpretation of Leif's question. I had mentally posted a reply to you already saying basically that I was confused by my reaction. That bit of my post was me explaining the reply that I didn't fully realize I hadn't actually made. So it doesn't really apply now that I understand what point of view you're coming from.
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Post by Riku on Jan 24, 2014 13:51:43 GMT -8
was confused by *your* reaction, not mine.
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Post by Marinated on Jan 24, 2014 14:47:16 GMT -8
I'm finally caught up and so far I'm getting the feeling that Leif and Firebolt are spies, and possibly AL but less sure there. I think Riku and Furare may be innocent; I'm fairly sure they're not both spies. If AL is a spy then I don't think Sets is. I need to have another look at the other three.
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Leif
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Post by Leif on Jan 24, 2014 15:36:44 GMT -8
OK, so I'm nominating me, Aeth, Furare and Sets.
I was going to do AL instead of me, the out of nowhere Marinated throws me, to the extent that it makes me pretty doubtful. Aeth and Sets I explained last night. Furare is a bit of a tossup. I'm not really sure there. She is right that we tend to squabble a bit more as innocents (though not exclusively.) I still don't have enough from Marinated, Joly, or Firebolt to make any decisions. Something about Bunny's last post rubs me a bit the wrong way. Maybe I'm just having finding some meaning in the You Send vs Suggestion for Leif thing. Just seems odd to me. With the prior eliminations (I've made for Reasons) that sorta leaves F sitting there. So here we are.
Mission Team: Leif, Aethera, Setsusa, Furare.
So whatever, have votes. That's where I've come down on this.
On that note, I'm apparently (and surprisedly) heading out for the weekend, so that's likely the last you hear of me for the time being.
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Post by Jolyma on Jan 24, 2014 16:08:53 GMT -8
Ok, so we have about 24 hours to vote (if I've figured it properly). Since I think that Leif is most likely a Not Spy from Mission 1, and I'd rather see more of the player base in action, I'm going with:
Vote: Accept
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Post by Marinated on Jan 24, 2014 16:33:42 GMT -8
As I think Leif may be a spy I'm going to say no to this one.
Vote: Reject
I think it's too soon to risk another mission anyway.
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Post by firebolt153 on Jan 24, 2014 16:56:14 GMT -8
I'm okay with this team.
Vote: Accept
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